John W. Loftus vs. Christianity

 

 

February 06, 2007, Ex-christian.net forum

http://web.archive.org/web/20071102142953/http://exchristian.net/exchristian/2007/02/discrimination-against-atheists.html#5586463258408886069

This program only inspires me to speak out in intelligent and cordial ways to reach believers with the evidence. There are things we can do. Up until now we sue in the courts over prayer and stuff. We need a charitable organization to pass out food to the hungry. We need some rich benefactor to buy up tons of atheist books and hand them out through student organizations on campuses around our country. Maybe the time is now to act. Maybe with Harris and Dawkins and Dennett, the time is now.

 

From Minister to Honest Doubter, p. 4.

You will also see that I am not antagonistic toward that faith either.

 

 

From Minister to Honest Doubter, p. 4.

While I doubt that faith, I still have a deep respect for that Christian message and for most of the people who believe it.  I write not to convince someone to doubt as I do.

 

 

June 16th 2005 , 03:48 PM http://www.theologyweb.com/campus/showpost.php?p=1073936&postcount=85

Is there such a thing as an honest doubter?

 

One thing though, if JP continues to piecemeal my book apart, and others jump in the fray, and if I continue to read and/or respond to the things written, then what you will be doing is giving me is the opportunity to revise my book within a year, and include within the revision the additional things I write and think about from this website.

And since my doubt is deep, then it will only mean that my revision will be a much better book, leading more people to doubt, and I will have you all to thank for that.

 

 

July 25th 2005 04:50 AM

http://www.theologyweb.com/campus/showpost.php?p=1128816&postcount=33

My goal in writing my book, as anyone will testify who bought it, was to explain why I changed. It was not written for the express purpose of trying to deconvert anyone.

 

From Minister to Honest Doubter, p. 4.

I will present a cumulative case against traditional Christianity that I think is reasonable.

 

 

From Minister to Honest Doubter, p. 5.  On the back cover this book is described as “poisonous.”  I think that best describes the contents.

 

 

From Minister to Honest Doubter, p. 5. “... poisonous describes it best.  Poison kills, I know, so it’s a stronger word than pornography.  But poison doesn’t always kill; it sometimes just makes you ill, or weak.  It’ll more than like weaken someone’s faith. But it may kill it.”

 

 

From Minister to Honest Doubter, “What if I’m Wrong?” pp. 171-173.

Well, I’m simply not consciously aware of any attempt to rebel against God, nor am I consciously aware of any attempt to deceive myself at all.

 

 

July 17th 2005, 05:14 PM

http://www.theologyweb.com/campus/showpost.php?p=1118204&postcount=42

Preterism Is An Admission That Jesus And The Early Disciples Were Wrong

 

But when I felt personally maligned, I fought back out of anger and disgust, and I started many different threads.

But that's not me. And I am not antagonistic to the Christian faith, either. That faith saved my life and made me into the kind of person I am today. I will always be thankful for it. I am, however, antagonistic toward people who malign me.

I have many Christian friends, and I have a respect for their faith. I am not bitter toward Christianity at all, although it may seem like that from the threads you have read.

 

 

June 26th 2005, 11:55 PM http://www.theologyweb.com/campus/showpost.php?p=1088871&postcount=44

Where is God in Infinite SPACE?

 

That's why I started this thread. I have said "no" to the claims you make about Jesus, and I have said "no" to the Christian faith. So where does that leave me?

 

 

June 29th 2005, 08:29 PM http://www.theologyweb.com/campus/showpost.php?p=1092708&postcount=56

Where is God in Infinite SPACE?

 

But just to be sure. I'm beyond help. I've rejected Christianity, having been a former apologist for it with three masters degrees.


That's me when it comes to Christianity. I cannot bring myself to even entertain the idea anymore. It's simply an incorrect theological system, no matter who's doing the interpreting.

What I don't know is the correct view of the reality which we experience, and alas, I fear that it's beyond my knowing. I actually think that if there is a God, then he should want to communicate to us in ways that human history can readily understand--but about this I'm not even sure. I just suppose that if it were me, I would, so I project that unto a hypothetical God. But since God does not communicate to us then he doesn't exist. But about this I'm not sure either.

 

 

June 30th 2005, 02:50 AM http://www.theologyweb.com/campus/showpost.php?p=1093244&postcount=60

Where is God in Infinite SPACE?

 

I would engage you in a discussion but I really believe your thinking is warped. Anything I say is twisted by you (even this, probably). I sincerely believe that if you cannot properly exegete what I've said, then you cannot properly exegete the Bible either. And you have not shown yourselves to do the former, so I do not believe you can do the later. Now that's an argument, but you will continue to argue in the face of your own postings that you properly understand what I say.

Furthermore, if you cannot properly understand what I say, then we cannot have a debate, either. Because I would continually have to make you understand what I say before you will see the point that I'm making, from which we could argue about that point. That's just way too frustrating for me.

 

As insensitive as you've been so far, I'll suppose you'll have an argument for what I've just written. Save it. It'll fall of deaf ears. Silence is all you'll get from me. You, your arguments, and your God are not worth my time anymore.

 

 

July 2nd 2005, 09:56 PM

http://www.theologyweb.com/campus/showpost.php?p=1097106&postcount=75

Where is God in Infinite SPACE?

 

So I’ve done some thinking and I’ve decided to change my mind. I’m back with a vengeance. Not hate, mind you. But I refuse to allow you to have your way with me by doing just what you want me to do, and that is to leave this web site. I decided to stay on TWEB as a “gadfly.” That’s what Socrates was to the people of his day, even though I’m no Socrates. Still, that’s what I’ll do. I figure if I post things here and you read them then they will have their effect on you, sooner or later. Everything we read has its effects on us—everything. That’s why the work of an apologist is dangerous work. You’ll know both sides of the case for and against Christianity, so that when a crisis comes in your life something just may snap with you like it did to me, and all of a sudden “pop” the opposite site of the fence looks better. So consider my posts as a kind of pornography. Once you look at it then you won’t be able to get it out of your mind. Once you read it, it stays there. But in order to ridicule me and/or deal with my arguments legitimately, you’ll have to look at it. So look at it. Go ahead. You’ll see.

 

 

July 2nd 2005, 10:43 PM

http://www.theologyweb.com/campus/showpost.php?p=1097162&postcount=1

Does God Answer Prayer?

 

I noticed in the "Chaplain's Office" people are praying for my wife who has been diagnosed with cancer. Thank you very much for your concern, and I sure would like to think it can help, but I really don't think so.

 

 

July 3rd 2005 , 03:13 PM http://www.theologyweb.com/campus/showpost.php?p=1097708&postcount=4

Does God Foreknow The Future?

 

What Then of Biblical Authority? The traditional prophetic paradigm does not adequately model what the Bible is like. If there is no predictive prophecy, then the life and times of Jesus were not predicted in advance either, except as aspirations of hope, human guesswork and misinterpretation. Along with other things, this leads me to believe that the Bible does not contain the very words of God. It has no authority over us.

 

 

July 4th 2005 , 10:16 PM

http://www.theologyweb.com/campus/showpost.php?p=1098841&postcount=1

The God of the Bible Doesn't Exist

 

One thing is sure to me. The God in the Bible simply cannot be describing the God that exists. That God is a hateful, racist and sexist God.

 

 

July 5th 2005 , 03:46 AM http://www.theologyweb.com/campus/showpost.php?p=1099167&postcount=23

Can a Historical Religion Be Believed?

 

To experience a true and undeniable miracle might take away the force of my arguments. One of the major reasons I doubt all claims to miracles is because I personally have never experienced one, even as a former Christian minister. I'll admit this. I don't deny that they cannot occur. I just have an overwhelming sense that they do not occur.

 

 

07.05.2005, 3:21pm link

http://web.archive.org/web/20061010022244/http://exchristian.net/doubter/2005/07/passion-of-christ-why-did-jesus-suffer.php?show_id=112040963686624927

 

Hey guys. I am debating over at theologyweb.com, and I am being over run by Christians. My username is "Doubting John" and I've started several threads. Go to them and put your comments in. They treat me like **** for the most part.

John W. Loftus[@]

 

 

July 6th 2005 , 08:05 PM http://www.theologyweb.com/campus/showpost.php?p=1101797&postcount=41

The God of the Bible Doesn't Exist

 

I however, think there is a standard of goodness that even the God of the Bible must follow. That's why I say that the God of the Bible doesn't exist. That God does not behave himself with good deeds, and that is the standard for believeing [sic] whether or not this God exists. I say he doesn't.

 

 

July 8th 2005, 09:49 PM http://www.theologyweb.com/campus/showpost.php?p=1105374&postcount=31

Former evangelical minister, now atheist

 

It is in fact Dan Barker. When I started the thread “Ex-Christian Testimonies” I contacted several people whom I knew and invited them on this website. Ed Babinski and I asked him to come join the fun. More will be coming. In fact, plenty of them are already here.

The way Christians have treated me on TWEB caused me to reach out to others. Perhaps soon Christians will be a minority on this website. Ha! Won't that be a hoot! Then the shoe will be on the other foot.

 

 

July 9th 2005 , 03:03 AM

http://www.theologyweb.com/campus/showpost.php?p=1105697&postcount=15

Nominate the most irritating TWEBber.

 

While I'm no Socrates, like him I consider myself a gadfly (a stinging fly).

Check out the thread I had with Mountain Man at "Commentary on Ex-Christian Testimonies" and see for yourself why he's irritated.

Jesus was irritating to his opponents too. So it just depends on who's ox is being gored, and who knows what he's talking about.

But first I was the one who was irritated, by JP Holding, and Tophet.

I don't take to that very well, and I come out with a vengeance.

See the threads: "Is there such a thing as an Honest Doubter?" And "Where is God in Infinte SPACE" to see how irritating they were to me.

Now it's my turn, except I'm using arguments and logic.

 

 

July 9th 2005 , 04:30 AM http://www.theologyweb.com/campus/showpost.php?p=1105816&postcount=28

The Universe is Religiously Ambiguous

 

Okay then, go to the thread, "Can a Historical Religion Be Believed?"

Read it. Digest it. Think about it.

Then answer it.

If you are a good Christian apologist, like I was at one time, then it should be a piece of cake for you.

 

And while you're at it, check out the thread "Can We Today Believe In Miracles?" which argues some of the same things.

To date no one has even given them a try.

The same can be said for the thread: "Why Did Jesus Suffer?"

And only meager attempts have been made for the thread "Jesus was not born (of) a virgin in Bethlehem."

Go ahead. Give them a go.

Let's see what you're made of.......

 

 

July 10th 2005 , 03:41 PM http://www.theologyweb.com/campus/showpost.php?p=1107334&postcount=2

Answering Doubting John's Big Three

 

I’ll try to be gracious here, since you are an honest believer who seriously tried to wrestle with the questions of my post. This I appreciate. And you’ve come to some answers. I just hope they satisfy you. But they don’t satisfy me. I won’t try to answer your points too forcefully, but I will make a few forceful comments. Yours is the kind of response I don’t try to trash—too much. I believe your response was heartfelt. But you're in over your head.

 

 

July 23rd 2005 , 10:31 PM

http://www.theologyweb.com/campus/showpost.php?p=1126679&postcount=1

I Think All Christians Are Idiots!

 

"Made ya look ya dirty crook."

I just want to see how many hits this thread will initially get.

P.S. I'm not serious.

P.S.S. What I mean by the "P.S." is that I really don't think all Christians are idiots.

P.S.S.S. Any questions?

P.S.S.S.S Just laugh.

 

 

July 25th 2005 , 04:39 AM

http://www.theologyweb.com/campus/showpost.php?p=1127660&postcount=1

Parting Thoughts From Doubting John

 

What I know is that you cannot defend Christianity, and I cannot make any headway with most of you.

I made my arguments, and that’s all I can do. But I have no reason to convert you like you do with me. You can die in your delusions if you want to, it won’t make a difference to me at all.

 

 

From Minister to Honest Doubter, p. 4.

While I doubt that faith, I still have a deep respect for that Christian message and for most of the people who believe it.

 

How can John W. Loftus have a “deep respect” for the Christian message “and for most of the people who believe it” when he advocates Christians to “die in your delusions if you want to”?

 

 

 

July 26, 2005, 04:50 AM

http://www.theologyweb.com/campus/showpost.php?p=1128816&postcount=34

Parting Thoughts From Doubting John

 

The most interesting thing I’ve learned is how that most of the Christians on TWEB that I talked to insisted that I was never a well-grounded Christian in the first place, so that part of my book will definitely get upgraded. And I did describe my book as poison on the back cover, but pedophilia? That’s way out of line. TWEBbers had their chance to stop me, but with their lame arguments and the way they treated me, they blew it.

 

It was not written for the express purpose of trying to deconvert anyone. I was just explaining the reasons why I deconverted, because a great many people that I have ministered to over the years were completely bewildered by my change. Although, I knew in advance that those reasons could be posion [sic] to the traditional Christian person's faith, so I warned them to be careful before they even considered buying it--on the back cover. And I expressed an appreciation for that Christian faith and a gratitude for that message which changed my life when I was young.

 

November 3rd 2005 , 12:29 PM

http://www.theologyweb.com/campus/showpost.php?p=1257030&postcount=21

Ask James Patrick Holding Anything Thread.....

Do you know of any book by a former apologist like me who set out the debunk the whole Christian worldview?

 

January 3rd 2006, 03:25 PM http://www.theologyweb.com/campus/showpost.php?p=1324098&postcount=114

Contra Doubting John

And as I said, I did want to warn these people to stay away from the book. You should compliment me for not wanting to destroy the faith of the less than average Christian thinker, if that were possible. But the truth is these people are not, I repeat not, my target audience. You really fail to understand the mildly complex sentence structure yourself. My target audience is not the people I warn to stay away from my book who choose to stay away from my book. It's those readers who think they can handle my book--that is my target audience. That's not so hard to understand, now, is it?

 

 

August 3rd 2005 , 07:21 PM http://www.theologyweb.com/campus/showpost.php?p=1138042&postcount=36

Submit Your Candidates for August Screwballs of the Month

 

So here's a simple question for Christians: If people like me are screwballs for thinking the way we do, then why is Christianity losing the debate in the marketplace of ideas? Oh, it may not look that way to you here on TWEB, because you can answer a man's arguments with sound bites, toons and ridicule. Here at TWEB you feel like you're winning the debate.

But you know that you're not winning, because world-wide opinion polls are solidly against you. Even if the polls say Christianity is growing in some parts of the world, Christianity is losing miserably over-all, and you know it. Moreover, you would be laughed at for saying most of the things you are saying here by most all of the world!

I guess most of the world is just stupid, and the stupidity of the world is growing and growing and growing, while the numbers of Christians who have the superior knowledge of the truth is shrinking and shrinking by every comparison.

Most of the world just cannot seem to grasp the truths that you offer, can they?

So TWEB is a respite where Christians can belittle the rest of the world, and you like having a few people like me here to belittle. It makes you feel superior, doesn't it? It makes you feel like you're more intelligent, too.

Well, I guess everyone needs a place of rest. So rest my children. But know that you are losing, and you will lose, eventually, even if there will forever be pockets of every major religion to the end human history.

 

 

August 8, 2010 10:12 PM

http://exploringourmatrix.blogspot.com/2010/08/web-is-battlefield.html?showComment=1281319964597#c7386409933092088452

 

Wait and see. I am his worse nightmare, not in any threatening physical sense. I am dedicated to the destruction of his faith. Evangelicals have him partially to thank.

Quote that Holding.