The John W. Loftus Whining Room



Oxford English Dictionary.  Second edition, 1989


whine, v.


    2. To utter complaints in a low querulous tone; to complain in a feeble, mean, or undignified way.




At, “Doubting John” complains about how Christians defend their faith.  Despite his claim to be a former minister, he is apparently ignorant of the Scriptural support for defending the faith.  These verses are listed at the end.


The following extracts document the complaining of Mr. Loftus.  Click on the links for the full post.



June 13th 2005, 10:51 PM

Is there such a thing as an honest doubter?

JP, you are very irritating, and it's not because you're correct, either.

And you are simply treating me unfairly by insinuating in this latest post that I am not well read, as evidenced by my long lists of quotations from some good books, as well as one book out of the many many others that communicates what true scholars are saying, Spong.

Anyway, just to prove you are indeed treating me unfairly, let me re-post a part of what the webmaster at said about my book ...


I suppose the Christian principle of “charity” doesn't similarly apply to “intellectual charity,” or if it does, then it doesn't apply to doubters like me either. But then some of the scribes in Jesus' day didn't think that the term “neighbor” applied to people outside their faith either.

I don't know why I bother here. But go ahead and continue being unfair with me. Some day it may come back to haunt you. I just hope you remember the things you write--please, save them all. You will be embarassed.


June 14th 2005, 04:16 PM

J.P. Holding’s response here:



June 16th 2005, 03:48 PM

Is there such a thing as an honest doubter?


You approach what I have written without using the principle of charity, because you want to show me wrong, rather than try to understand what I said.

This is just interesting to me. And it treats me unfairly. And I'm not crying over it, either, JP. I'm just pointing out that this is definitely not a high level discussion. Sometimes it is a high school level of interchange.


June 16th 2005, 05:57 PM

J.P. Holding’s response here:


June 17th 2005 , 07:49 PM

Tophet”’s response here:


and reposted here after DJ fled to another thread that he had started:

June 28th 2005 , 06:23 PM



June 17th 2005, 05:43 PM

Is there such a thing as an honest doubter?


Former Fundy,

You're right. I'm out of here. JP's response to you did it for me. I've got better things to do.


“Doubting John” sends out a distress call to!


07.05.2005, 3:21pm link


Hey guys. I am debating over at, and I am being over run by Christians. My username is “Doubting John” and I've started several threads. Go to them and put your comments in. They treat me like **** for the most part.

John W. Loftus[@]



Back to TheologyWeb:


July 9th 2005 , 03:12 AM

Submit Your Candidates for July Screwballs of the Month


If I had been treated politely and respectfully on this website then I would've carried on a debate in the thread “Is there such a thing as an honest Doubter” and that's all. But if you'll read through that thread and see how it degenerated to ridicule and accusations you'll see.

So then I started another thread called “Where is God in Infinte [sic] SPACE,” and if you'll read through that thread you will understand perfectly why there is this “doubting John movement.”

I don't take it well when JP Holding and Tophet, or anyone else, disrespects me.

See for yourself, and you'll understand.

So I'm back with a vengeance.

Enjoy! Or Cry if you want to.

I have only begun.


July 9th 2005 , 02:48 PM

J.P. Holding’s response posted here:


July 9th 2005 , 03:10 PM

Tophet”’s response posted here:


The next day, John W. Loftus asked the proprietor of to post an S.O.S.


Sunday, July 10, 2005


John Loftus writes: At, I've started a new thread and I'm inviting anyone who would like to share their ex-christian testimony to do so there in the midst of the Christian apologetic wolves. Theologyweb is dominated by smug Christians who think they have all of the answers to the perplexity of this life, so be forewarned. There are lots of issues to debate if you want to.



Back to TheologyWeb:


July 19th 2005, 01:21 AM

Doubting John’s Argument Against The Resurrection.


But at this point I'll not cast my pearls before the swine further here with you on the topic of whether or not I was a true Christian.


July 19th 2005, 04:47 AM

Doubting John’s Argument Against The Resurrection.


And what if I exegete this verse in a way you disaprove [sic] of?

Does that make my former Christian faith suspect?

Do you think you've got me now?



July 19th 2005, 08:11 PM

Doubting John’s Argument Against The Resurrection.


Just stop your probing. You are way off base here. And dead wrong about me. I'm just going to stop frustrating myself trying to answer someone who refuses to see.



July 20th 2005 , 06:54 PM

Doubting John’s Argument Against The Resurrection.


The “principle of charity” calls upon exegetes to place upon the text the best possible interpretation possible before criticizing it. Did you do that? Now I'm sure you will say you did that, but claiming you did will only reveal your ignorance to me, so don't bother.



July 21st 2005 , 01:31 PM

Doubting John’s Argument Against The Resurrection.


So your choice is between what you interpret the Bible to say and what I say? Well of course, I lose hands down now, don't I? I never even had a chance, did I?


July 24th 2005 , 04:47 PM

What is the relationship of faith and reason?


Anyway, I find that you make comments on things I didn't comment on, and you want to debate things with me that we agree about. You also mischaracterize what I say and fail to properly understand me, too.


July 25th 2005 , 04:39 AM

Parting Thoughts From Doubting John


It’s time for me to leave you. You didn’t think I would stay here on TWEB forever, did you?

This is not the place for any high level discussion or debate, so I am out of here. And since I posted in the Apologetics section quite a bit, I'll leave my parting wishes here as well.

It’s way too frustrating, and I have other things to do.

I’ll probably check in from time to time, but them again maybe not. I cannot say either way in advance. I may never come back. What I know is that you cannot defend Christianity, and I cannot make any headway with most of you.

I made my arguments, and that’s all I can do. But I have no reason to convert you like you do with me. You can die in your delusions if you want to, it won’t make a difference to me at all.


I came to your web site and handled it. Now you come to ours. See how far you get there by arguing that one cannot leave Christianity unless he or she is not well-grounded. You’ll get ridiculed.

See if you like being ridiculed, like you did to me.


[“Doubting John” proceeds to insult those who dared to disagree with him.]


But I suspect you’ll miss me, although several of you will be stupid enough to proclaim victory. “We showed him didn’t we?” Well, no you didn’t. I just don’t want to waste any more of my time here. And I said most of what I wanted to say, anyway.



July 26th 2005 , 04:50 AM

Parting Thoughts From Doubting John


Some think I’m a coward. Some think I’m arrogant. Some just don’t care. With such gracious responses like those it makes me want to come back into the Christian fold and re-convert—NOT!


I just wanted a friendly discussion/debate, but Tophet and JPH ridiculed and belittled me. That’s why I became antagonistic. It’s like kicking someone in the teeth and then when he fights back you chide him for fighting back, FormerFundy. But basically I’m a gentleman, although when belittled I fight, with a vengeance.

Those of you who were not part of those initial exchanges found in the threads: “Is There Such A Thing As An Honest Doubter,” and “Where Is God In Infinite SPACE” who subsequently became the brunt of my attacks, let me say that I’m sorry--that too is a word I rarely, if ever hear on TWEB. If you’ll trudge through those threads you’ll understand better.


... The thing that frustrated me the very most, as a distant second to the undeserved initial belittling that I received, is simply not being understood. Now I know that with different perspectives we all feel misunderstood at times, and I probably misunderstood some of you too. But when the misunderstanding seems overwhelming or intentional it's simply way too frustrating to continue to say over and over, “I didn't say that,” or “you misunderstood me.” If I can carry on a debate with someone who doesn't misunderstand me so often--which in my mind is a mark of intelligence itself--then I'll really consider it. But it'll have to be later on, who knows when?


Ed Brayton posted this:


John Loftus is a very important member of the atheist community. Yes, I think he can be a bit of a prima donna and has a persecution complex that is too easily triggered, but that doesn’t detract from the brilliance or necessity of his writing. And John, I wish you’d stop taking any criticism so personally.


To which Loftus responded:


I dispute that I'm thinned skinned though. I've taken the heat from the other side for years. I do however, feel that the criticisms coming from my own side have more of an effect on me because I don't want to feel like I'm going it alone. Sometimes it feels that way.





Jude 1:3

   3Dear friends, although I was very eager to write to you about the salvation we share, I felt I had to write and urge you to contend for the faith that was once for all entrusted to the saints.


Proverbs 10:17
He who heeds discipline shows the way to life, but whoever ignores correction leads others astray.


Proverbs 12:1
Whoever loves discipline loves knowledge, but he who hates correction is stupid.


Proverbs 13:18
He who ignores discipline comes to poverty and shame, but whoever heeds correction is honored.


Proverbs 15:12
A mocker resents correction; he will not consult the wise.


Proverbs 15:31
He who listens to a life-giving rebuke will be at home among the wise.


Proverbs 15:32
He who ignores discipline despises himself, but whoever heeds correction gains understanding.


Proverbs 22:19
So that your trust may be in the LORD, I teach you today, even you.


Proverbs 27:5
Better is open rebuke than hidden love.


Proverbs 28:23
He who rebukes a man will in the end gain more favor than he who has a flattering tongue.


Proverbs 29:1
A man who remains stiff-necked after many rebukes will suddenly be destroyed—without remedy.


Ecclesiastes 7:5
It is better to heed a wise man's rebuke than to listen to the song of fools.


Matthew 5:19
Anyone who breaks one of the least of these commandments and teaches others to do the same will be called least in the kingdom of heaven, but whoever practices and teaches these commands will be called great in the kingdom of heaven.


Luke 17:3
So watch yourselves. If your brother sins, rebuke him, and if he repents, forgive him.


John 14:23-24

    23Jesus replied, “If anyone loves me, he will obey my teaching. My Father will love him, and we will come to him and make our home with him. 24He who does not love me will not obey my teaching. These words you hear are not my own; they belong to the Father who sent me.


1 Corinthians 15:58
Therefore, my dear brothers, stand firm. Let nothing move you. Always give yourselves fully to the work of the Lord, because you know that your labor in the Lord is not in vain.


1 Timothy 5:20
Those who sin are to be rebuked publicly, so that the others may take warning.


1 Timothy 6:2-4

    3If anyone teaches false doctrines and does not agree to the sound instruction of our Lord Jesus Christ and to godly teaching, 4he is conceited and understands nothing. He has an unhealthy interest in controversies and quarrels about words that result in envy, strife, malicious talk, evil suspicions


2 Timothy 3:16
All Scripture is God-breathed and is useful for teaching, rebuking, correcting and training in righteousness,


2 Timothy 4:2
Preach the Word; be prepared in season and out of season; correct, rebuke and encourage—with great patience and careful instruction.


Titus 1:13-16
13This testimony is true. Therefore, rebuke them sharply, so that they will be sound in the faith 14and will pay no attention to Jewish myths or to the commands of those who reject the truth. 15To the pure, all things are pure, but to those who are corrupted and do not believe, nothing is pure. In fact, both their minds and consciences are corrupted. 16They claim to know God, but by their actions they deny him. They are detestable, disobedient and unfit for doing anything good.


Titus 2:15
These, then, are the things you should teach. Encourage and rebuke with all authority. Do not let anyone despise you.

2 Peter 2:1-3

    1But there were also false prophets among the people, just as there will be false teachers among you. They will secretly introduce destructive heresies, even denying the sovereign Lord who bought them—bringing swift destruction on themselves. 2Many will follow their shameful ways and will bring the way of truth into disrepute. 3In their greed these teachers will exploit you with stories they have made up. Their condemnation has long been hanging over them, and their destruction has not been sleeping.


2 John 1:9
Anyone who runs ahead and does not continue in the teaching of Christ does not have God; whoever continues in the teaching has both the Father and the Son.


James 5:19-20

19My brothers, if one of you should wander from the truth and someone should bring him back, 20remember this: Whoever turns a sinner from the error of his way will save him from death and cover over a multitude of sins.